Tony Baldry said:

“It is very good news that the Government has decided to take firm and clear action to tackle the problem of metal theft.

“In my capacity as Second Church Estates Commissioner, I know only too well about the problem of theft of lead from the roofs of on average some 10 churches per day. This is a tragedy for both our national heritage and the local communities within which these churches are situated.

“Not just churches, as a constituency MP I am well aware of the disruption caused to the rail network by the theft of copper signalling and only last weekend many villagers in Oxfordshire found themselves cut off from their telephones and home computers due to the theft of telephone cabling.

“It has been all too easy to steal metal overnight and simply sell it for cash the next day – no questions asked. So I am very pleased that the government is taking firm, clear and decisive action on metal theft.”

To read the full statement by the Home Secretary, please click here: Scrap Metal Dealers Written Statement 260112.

Tony Baldry: There are no apprentices currently employed by the Church Commissioners or the Church of England.

However, the Church does provide a space for long-term employment and opportunities for skilled professionals and their students to undertake apprenticeships, training, or conservation work on and within its buildings, stone/carpentry yards and stained glass workshops choir and organ schools.

Tony Baldry: The Church of England only has information pertaining to its Church of England schools. There are around 4,700 of these schools and academies across the country, spanning both the primary and secondary sectors.

These schools are assessed on a regular basis by Ofsted and the local diocese. From the denominational inspection reports it is clear that the Lord’s Prayer is in regular use in collective worship in the majority of Church of England schools.

To view a full copy of the letter, please click on the link provided here: Theresa May on Metal Theft 040112.

Tony Baldry: The Church of England Pensions Board administers three pension schemes on behalf of the Church of England.

The Church of England Funded Pensions Scheme (the scheme for clergy of the Church of England) had a deficit of £262 million at the last valuation, as at 31 December 2009. That deficit is being recovered over a 12 year period ending 31 December 2022.

Smaller deficits exist on the other schemes, which are being recovered over shorter periods.

James Brokenshire [holding answer 5 December 2011]: The details of the national metal theft taskforce are currently being developed, in liaison with the British Transport police which is leading this work, and will be announced shortly.

Figures from the police obtained by the BBC show there were 263 thefts between May and October, compared with 99 during the same period in 2010.

Incidents include worshippers having purses stolen while taking communion and lead theft from church roofs.

Tony Baldry, the Conservative MP for Banbury, and a church commissioner, described the act of stealing from churches as despicable.

He added: “The people who are having to cover the loss very often are themselves struggling communities.

“The church is providing a community resource, it’s providing a place not only for people to worship but also very often for people to meet.”

Oxford churches accounted for 161 of the 263 thefts.

The Rev Adam Romanis, vicar of St Mary and St John church in east Oxford, said opportunistic thieves were taking advantage at busy services to rob parishioners.

But lead and a copper lightning conductor had also been taken.

Safe-cracking

He added that the church could no longer be left open to the public when unsupervised.

“So often people will come in to say a prayer, or just sit or enjoy the quiet or to look out of curiosity.

“We love it when they do that and we want to encourage that, but unfortunately that can’t be the norm.”

Verona Harris, who has worshipped at the church for over 60 years, said her purse was stolen during an Easter service.

“I saw this man disappearing with it and as he went out of the door he said, ‘Happy Easter’ to me,” she said.

“I was not amused. I hope it did him some good because there was quite a lot of money in it.

“It happens when people go up to communion. Most people take their handbags with them which is such a bore, but we just have to do it.”

CCTV footage captured an intruder trying to crack into a safe at St James the Great in Radley near Abingdon.

When this failed the thief took a poppy collection box instead.

The Rev Pam McKellen said: “We do want our churches to be open as much as they can be because they are a refuge.

“But we’re in a dilemma as to how we can do that and not everybody can have a CCTV camera.”

In 1836, shortly after the passing of the Great Reform Bill, Parliament established the Ecclesiastical Commissioners.

Parliament’s concern was that some dioceses had substantial estates and revenues whilst others, such as the newly growing cities such as Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, had little by way of estates or revenue, but clearly growing needs.

So Parliament all of the Church’s existing estates and revenues under the control of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, particularly charged to have regard for the needs of the poorer dioceses.

The Act created the three Church Estates Commissioners to act as Treasurers.

Two of the Church Estates Commissioners were to be appointed by the Crown, and the third by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

Shortly after the Second World War, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners merged with another institution, the Queen Anne’s Bounty, to create the Church Commissioners that exist today.

By convention the Second Church Estates Commissioner has always been a senior Government back bencher.

The constitutional logic of this appointment is that there is no Minister of the Crown who in Parliament can represent or speak on behalf of the Church Commissioners, and so that is done by the Second Church Estates Commissioner.

The appointment is made by the Queen on the recommendation of the Prime Minister, and with the approval of the Archbishop of Canterbury.

One holds the position at the Queen’s pleasure.

In practice, this means that those serving as Second Church Estates Commissioner have tended to do so from appointment either until they retire or leave Parliament, or if their Party loses power at a General Election.

My three predecessors all served for some time.

Sir William van Straubenzee was Second Church Estates Commissioner from 1979 until 1987 when he retired from Parliament.

He was succeeded by Michael Allison, who served for some ten years from 1987 until 1997, and he in turn was succeeded by Sir Stuart Bell, who served for the whole thirteen years of the last Labour Government and is to date the longest-ever serving Second Church Estates Commissioner.

The Second Church Estates Commissioner is ex officio a member of the House of Laity of the General Synod and so as it happens, I am the only Member of Parliament on General Synod and the only member of General Synod in the House of Commons.

I see my roles as follows.

• To be a voice and representative of the Established Church in the House of Commons. In that regard, once a month, I answer Oral Questions on behalf of the Church Commissioners.

Over the years the Table Office has relaxed the parameters of questions that can be tabled to me.

When I was first elected to Parliament, such questions were questions specifically about the activities and responsibilities of the Church Commissioners per se. Over the years the Table Office have relaxed the provisions so that for “Church Commissioners” one can read the “Church of England” and so the Oral Questions I answer in the House of Commons can cover a very wide range, so that at the last Oral Questions to the Church Commissioners, I answered questions on, amongst other things

• The policy of the Church of England that services of blessing should not be conducted in church premises for those who register civil partnerships;
• What steps the Church is taking to promote church tourism;
• What steps is the Church taking to encourage churches to form closer links with their local communities;
• What steps the Church of England has taken to support Food Banks;
• What support the Church of England is providing to Christians in Pakistan;
• What assessment has been made of the number of dioceses which have voted in favour of the proposed legislation on Women and the Episcopacy?
• What discussions has the Church had on the effects of the demonstrations outside St. Paul’s Cathedral;
• How many churches plan to hold community celebrations for the London 2012 Olympics; and
• A specific question on negotiations and discussions with English Heritage on replacing lead with modern materials as a consequence of theft of metal from church buildings.

I am responsible for taking through the House of Commons any measures passed by General Synod.

So, if in due course, Synod agrees to a measure for women bishops, then I will be responsible for taking that measure through the House of Commons.

I see my role also as trying to ensure that the Government and Ministers understand the concerns of the Church of England; that Ministers and officials understand the workings of the Church of England; and whenever necessary to ensure that Ministers give time to listening to the concerns of senior members of the Church on specific policy issues.

So, for example, I have ensured that

• the Bishop of London and Anne Sloman, who heads the Cathedral and Churches Council have had meetings with successive Home Office Ministers to discuss the theft of lead from church buildings;

• Anne Sloman, and other bishops, have had meetings with Richard Benyon at DEFRA to discuss the problem of bats in churches;

• Anne Sloman and the Bishop of London have had a meeting with myself and John Penrose, the Heritage Minister at DCMS, to discuss heritage-related issues;

• The Bishop of Ripon and Leeds and myself had a meeting with Damian Green, the Immigration Minister at the Home Office, to discuss sham marriages and the Church’s response;

• I have had meetings with Cabinet Office Ministers to discuss the process for the Government’s proposals for the Reform of the House of Lords and its possible effect upon Bishops in a mainly elected Second Chamber;

• I have sought to ensure that the Home Secretary makes time for a meeting with the Archbishops of Canterbury and York, to discuss the Church’s concerns on the Government’s proposals on same sex marriage.

• I ensured that the National Society were able to celebrate the 200th Anniversary of the National Society at a reception on the Terrace of the House of Commons, and had an exhibition of the work of the National Society in the Upper Waiting Hall in Parliament.

• With the Rector of St. Margaret’s, I arranged a service to celebrate the work of non-stipendiary Ministers across the country.

In short, I want to try and ensure that the voice of the Church of England is heard and respected by Ministers and senior Civil Servants.

I also want to try and ensure that Ministers understand the workings of the Church – that is not always easy.

Two Archbishops, the House of Bishops, Church House, Lambeth Palace, Archbishop’s Conference, General Synod, and so it is very often an issue of making sure that at the appropriate time, the appropriate people are talking to the appropriate people.

I think the task of the Second Church Estates Commissioner is to retain the confidence and trust of both the Church and the Government, because in a sense one is accountable to everybody and nobody simultaneously.

I suppose the purpose of being a Crown appointment is that one is being trusted to use one’s judgement to try and get things right and there is, in a sense, a Panglossian element of trying to ensure the best possible relations with everyone all the time.

I hope that every part of the Church of England will see me as an actual resource and I have spoken to Diocesan Synods on topics as varying as “The Big Society” and “The Better Relationship between Churches and Communities”.

Lastly, of course, I am one of the Church Estates Commissioners and of course the Church Commissioners have some £7.5 billion under investment of which we distribute £100 million to support the Church each year – approximately 17p in every £1 spent by the Church of England.

So being Second Church Estates Commissioner is an interesting and enjoyable task and one I hope I can discharge to the benefit of both the Church and Parliament.

Tony Baldry
November 2011

Tony was joined at the meeting by the Bishop of Norwich, Bishop of Lincoln and the Bishop of Chelmsford as well as Anne Sloman who is Chair of the Church Buildings Council.

Following the meeting, Tony Baldry said:

“Bats in Churches are not a joke. They are a serious problem where in my view there needs to be greater understanding by Natural England of the damage that bats do to Church Heritage. I am very glad that Richard Benyon is going to work on this issue and hopefully we will be able to resolve the worst cases over the coming months”.

From L-R, The Bishop of Norwich, Ann Sloman, The Bishop of Lincoln, Tony Baldry MP, and the Bishop of Chelmsford at DEFRA met with Richard Benyon to discuss the problems caused by excessive Bat droppings in churches.